Why Anime filler =/= Canon

Someone in the C-box said that anime filler was canon and wanted me to prove it wasn't canon. I made a thread about it here instead of spamming the c-box.

Definition of canon:

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)

A canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is a body of material that is considered to be "genuine" or "official", that can be directly referenced as, or as if it were, material produced by the original author or creator of a series. New works set within that universe are ostensibly constrained to be consistent with pre-existing canon, though the issue is somewhat complicated by several factors: pre-existing canon itself may also be subject to retcon, for instance, and some licensed works, such as movie or television novelizations or spin-off novels, may not be considered "canonical" by some. Additionally, adaptations of a work into other formats, such as feature film or television, may be considered either non-canonical, or forming a separate canon; and consistency with prior canon is not sufficient in and of itself to make a work "canonical" - fan fiction, for instance, often follows the original pre-existing canon but is not part of the canon.

First off, Filler episodes have nothing to do with the mangaka's original intended plot, filler episodes are created for the purpose of filling up episodes to allow the manga to proceed before the anime catches up. Masashi Kishomoto, the Mangaka of Naruto, is not involved at any stage in the development of filler episodes, characters, or jutsu, indeed he has little role in the Anime in general, he does not write the plot. Thus filler episodes cannot be classified as representative of the Canon naruto-verse. Not to mention the gross inaccuracies and inconsistencies that filler episodes cause. Ironically these filler episodes are designed to prevent the mess up that occurs when the anime catches up to the manga (and if anyone knows what happened to the original FMA, they know for sure that anime =/= canon).

Examples of a few filler muck-ups:

Raiga Kurosuki - One of the 'filler' Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist. Has two katana that draw upon lightning. Problem? In canon, all seven swordsmen wield broad swords as shown by their canon appearances or through the silhouette of the organisation. He also creates continuity problems, unlike Zabuza, he doesn't get a mention again by Kisame and as more and more swordsmen are being revealed, I expect a continuity problem will arise if the number hits 7.

Ranmaru's Doujutsu Kekkai Genkai - Not much explanation needed here. We have three main doujutsu considered the strongest, and out comes some random doujutsu that trumps oover the Byakugan without any explanation on the KKG.

Ice - In the manga it is clearly mentioned that only Haku's KKG could use it by combining suiton and wind. I think is mentioned in the Anime too. Along comes filler, the first movie has showing that shinobi of the Land of Snow are able to perform Ice Release techniques without a bloodline by manipulating the ice around them and furthermore, in the Flower country filler arc Renga was able to use Ice Release without an ice source or kekkai genkai. Another inconsistency problem.

Nidaime's Sword - For a sword that was supposed to be legendary, it got no mention until the filler episode and then a Jounin wielding a sword supposed to be invincible gets defeated by two genin. It's a fail plot-continuity wise and representative of filler material in general.

There are lots more inconsistencies but as I haven't watched naruto anime (and certainly filler) since the very first time I saw those eps, I don't remember much more in detail.

Leaf Ninja:

Spoiler:

Leaf Ninja's own World Map clearly defines the 'canon' map and the 'extended' anime map, so for people defending Leaf Ninja's canonicity, it would be ironic to go against their own definition of canon.



Tropes: Ah the lovable tvtropes. What does it have to say about filler and canon?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Filler

Entries in a continuity based serial that have no bearing on the main plot, doesn't significantly alter the dynamic, and generally serves to knock off another entry. Could be considered Padding applied to a whole franchise.

Extremely common in anime, where nearly every show with 26 or more episodes per season will end up employing it to meet contractual demands. Filler is usually something entirely original for the anime, but it isn't always the case; many manga employ filler just as ruthlessly. Sometimes entire filler Arcs are created, most often because the series Overtook The Manga. Almost any long-running manga-based anime action series will tend to have gargantuan amounts of filler, because the Japanese networks, unlike western ones, pretty much don't do reruns or season breaks at all. This especially gets compounded when they go beyond the 26 episode mark, with many series getting over 40 episodes a season when they would struggle to even make half of them related to the main stories.

Fillers basically fit into the Expanded Universe trope, and as canon pretty much literally means, relating to continuity, Fillers are almost always not considered canon by sheer definition. For the sake of being politically correct though, what may be regarded as canon is pretty much opinion, it just so happens that you'd be hard pressed to find a logical opinion that believes anime filler to be canon. Having been on some huge forums, narutofan to name a few, I can verify that the majority of the fandom even consider the rest of the anime to be non-canon (over stuff like Nidaime using the bringer-of-darkness genjutsu instead of Shodaime in the manga).

Ehh?
Firstly, I don't even believe in "filler" in terms that its just something to keep watchers preoccupied.

The whole idea of something like that really irritates me.
Do you like the show?
Do you like the characters?
Do you wanna -know- about the characters?

With the "canon" defination, the intire "Inuyasha" series is nothing -but- fillers.

I have yet to see an episode from Naruto or Naruto Shippuden that I didn't like or think had some kind of point to to the characters backgroud or something similar.

The point for many manga authors is to make thier manga into an anime to further (and more quickly) explain the series, story plot, characters. Luck and quite a bit of fandom makes this happen. Some manga creators often lose interest in the manga itself if the anime ever does come out (this isn't true with the Naruto series because Mamashi Kishimoto loves manga, he also likes to explain his manga worlds and you get alot more content in the anime then you do the manga). The variation for FMA was completely intentional btw, Hiromu himself said so.
If there was anything in the storyline of the anime that Mamashi didn't agree with, it most likely wouldn't have been there.

I long ago lost count of how many series I've seen (both manga and anime), I consider myself somewhat of an expert in the field, I am also working on getting my own novels into anime form, so it irritates me when I see people refer to episodes purely as something to distract them from the main story plot, if a creators and thier staff focused the story only on the plot, then it makes for an extremely short series ( a few animes that did this come to mind like Akira, Ikki Tousen, Vandread, Shana ect). If all the creators did this then we as a site probably wouldn't even be here since the series would have long since been over and people's interest in it would most likely already have wained, the same goes for Bleach as well.

So, in conclusion, "canon" is anything the creators want it to be, if they write something into the series, then it should be looked on as fact towards the series even if its contridicting, unless the creators themselves say otherwise. How can anyone say it isn't when they (the people watching/reading) didn't create the thing to begin with?

Also, leafninja's map is based on the one used on the offical naruto website and both differ from the original that was put in shonen jump years ago (this company is the one that first published Naruto). I've been wanting to make a map with this one in mind (since its the original and alot larger) but alas I cannot find that issue as most of my first year for jump have vanished, I can say this though, Mamashi stated that the Naruto world is heavily based on the place where he grew up.

~Kazuya

Kazuya wrote:Ehh?
Firstly, I don't even believe in "filler" in terms that its just something to keep watchers preoccupied.

The whole idea of something like that really irritates me.
Do you like the show?
Do you like the characters?
Do you wanna -know- about the characters?

With the "canon" defination, the intire "Inuyasha" series is nothing -but- fillers.

I have yet to see an episode from Naruto or Naruto Shippuden that I didn't like or think had some kind of point to to the characters backgroud or something similar.

The point for many manga authors is to make thier manga into an anime to further (and more quickly) explain the series, story plot, characters. Luck and quite a bit of fandom makes this happen. Some manga creators often lose interest in the manga itself if the anime ever does come out (this isn't true with the Naruto series because Mamashi Kishimoto loves manga, he also likes to explain his manga worlds and you get alot more content in the anime then you do the manga). The variation for FMA was completely intentional btw, Hiromu himself said so.
If there was anything in the storyline of the anime that Mamashi didn't agree with, it most likely wouldn't have been there.

I long ago lost count of how many series I've seen (both manga and anime), I consider myself somewhat of an expert in the field, I am also working on getting my own novels into anime form, so it irritates me when I see people refer to episodes purely as something to distract them from the main story plot, if a creators and thier staff focused the story only on the plot, then it makes for an extremely short series ( a few animes that did this come to mind like Akira, Ikki Tousen, Vandread, Shana ect). If all the creators did this then we as a site probably wouldn't even be here since the series would have long since been over and people's interest in it would most likely already have wained, the same goes for Bleach as well.

So, in conclusion, "canon" is anything the creators want it to be, if they write something into the series, then it should be looked on as fact towards the series even if its contridicting, unless the creators themselves say otherwise. How can anyone say it isn't when they (the people watching/reading) didn't create the thing to begin with?

Also, leafninja's map is based on the one used on the offical naruto website and both differ from the original that was put in shonen jump years ago (this company is the one that first published Naruto). I've been wanting to make a map with this one in mind (since its the original and alot larger) but alas I cannot find that issue as most of my first year for jump have vanished, I can say this though, Mamashi stated that the Naruto world is heavily based on the place where he grew up.

~Kazuya

There's a difference between canon incontinuity (which exists plenty in Naruto but I won't go into this), and filler incontinuity. What you'll find is that the majority of filler anime episodes based on manga, particulary long-running animes, have no tie-in or relevence to the main plot. Whether there is character development or not is irrelevant (in fact fillers provide considerable development for side characters).

The creator and mangaka of Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto is not involved in the writing process of fillers or the Anime in general. In fact, fillers wouldn't be so detestable if not for the sheer fact that they are incontinuity-filled and poorly written with few exceptions (G-8 Filler Arc in the One Piece Anime). The existence of filler episodes in the Japanese Anime Industry is pretty clear cut, they are there to 'fill' out contractual demands and/or to ensure the anime doesn't overtake the manga.

If the Anime fillers were written by Kishimoto himself, you could argue that they are canon, but they're not. He doesn't write them. He doesn't direct them. It's the job of the Anime team to churn out those episodes. It's not like Kishimoto wants to contradict himself when a poorly written filler episode is shown or when Nidaime ends up using a jutsu that Shodaime was supposed to be using or when the Anime producers decided to randomly create the guy from the 7 Legendary swordsmen of the Mist. Your argument would only apply if Kishi made those mistakes himself or had deliberately intended for such mistakes.

And the original FMA Anime is pretty much universally regarded as non-canon, whether any changes to the original story were intentional or not. Fillers, and Anime as an extension, may be better regarded as being part of an expanded universe trope. Arguments that Filler Episodes are relevant or canon make about as much sense that Video Game Franchise Plots and Jutsu are canon. If expanded franchises were regarded as canon, you'd have so much inconsistency, incontinuity and entirely changed plots, power-scaling and jutsu that things simply don't make sense.

Not to question your taste either, but did you really like the filler arcs that existed in the Naruto Anime? I've never met a person who liked them. When I first watched the series before I even read the manga or knew what 'fillers' were, the 85 episodes of filler in the 'first' series (before shippuden) had obvious less quality and relevance, stuff doesn't even get mentioned in reference once the arc is finished. I asked the friend who introduced me to Naruto, why there was such a difference in feel to the episodes in general and that's when I found out about the existence of fillers. There may be a few exceptions to this but generally, filler arcs conclude and once they conclude, the stuff that's happened in the arcs are never mentioned again, either in passing or in reference and most importantly have nothing to do with the plots in the actual original manga series written and drawn by Kishimoto himself.

Since reading manga of these long-running series, I've never particulary liked long-running Anime, or atleast Anime based on Manga. There are a few exceptional ones, Death Note, Monster etc. You get similar problems with trying to make film adaptions out of best-sellers, chances are, that the film won't be as good as the book. Original Anime particulary appeal to me in that regard, especially as they actually get distinguished script writers and producers working in decent studios. The concept of canon though, is in essence, wholly a fandom based concept, and hence, there are differing views on canon, though once again, the generally accepted view is that Anime Filler is certainly not part of Naruto Canon.

There's a difference between canon incontinuity (which exists plenty in Naruto but I won't go into this), and filler incontinuity. What you'll find is that the majority of filler anime episodes based on manga, particulary long-running animes, have no tie-in or relevence to the main plot. Whether there is character development or not is irrelevant (in fact fillers provide considerable development for side characters).

I'm just wanting to point this out, there are different types of "plot".
1) The the story plot (what drives the character to achieve goals) The "main" plots in shippuden is the destruction of either the Akatsuki (atm) or the Akatsuki completely destroying the great nations and there residents.
2) Character plots (goals for the characters themselves), like Hinata falling in love with Naruto (and trying to achieve the reverse) or similar stuff like Naruto/Sakura trying to get Sasuke to return to Konoha.
3) The world plot (what events, or characteristics in the world affect the characters) this, in Naruto, would be missions as a ninja, so in essence, anything that relates to a mission would become part of the plot, and as such should be considered "canon" since this would be the whole premises for Naruto/Naruto Shippuden.

The creator and mangaka of Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto is not involved in the writing process of fillers or the Anime in general. In fact, fillers wouldn't be so detestable if not for the sheer fact that they are incontinuity-filled and poorly written with few exceptions (G-8 Filler Arc in the One Piece Anime). The existence of filler episodes in the Japanese Anime Industry is pretty clear cut, they are there to 'fill' out contractual demands and/or to ensure the anime doesn't overtake the manga.

The only relates to the actual story becoming the same in the Anime (or reverse) to keep from having to "split" the storylines you will see the staff take certain chances like this to further the development of the characters ect, just because it breaks away, doesn't mean it was created to take up space between time constraints. This is what people find annoying leading to the assumption that it was done just because theres a contract or whatever, I'll admit that some quality was lost between the end of Naruto and before Shippuden got going, but I don't agree that the reason was because of a contract, there was still quite a deal of qaulity left in the shows and I've seen plenty of series that had way less. Whether or not this drop in quality was because of the new series was starting is something you would have to staff, but I'd just bet the reason was to allow the more senior members to work at making the new story plots.

If the Anime fillers were written by Kishimoto himself, you could argue that they are canon, but they're not. He doesn't write them. He doesn't direct them. It's the job of the Anime team to churn out those episodes. It's not like Kishimoto wants to contradict himself when a poorly written filler episode is shown or when Nidaime ends up using a jutsu that Shodaime was supposed to be using or when the Anime producers decided to randomly create the guy from the 7 Legendary swordsmen of the Mist. Your argument would only apply if Kishi made those mistakes himself or had deliberately intended for such mistakes.

I repeat, if Kishimoto didn't like what was being done, I know he would have put a stop to it, Naruto is just to popular for Viz/Jump to argue with him he has a large opinion on what goes on, so while he might not have worked on them himself, his opinions are still very important to what actually goes on. I myself would never allow one of my ideas to be ran into the ground in such a way that you're implying.

And the original FMA Anime is pretty much universally regarded as non-canon, whether any changes to the original story were intentional or not. Fillers, and Anime as an extension, may be better regarded as being part of an expanded universe trope. Arguments that Filler Episodes are relevant or canon make about as much sense that Video Game Franchise Plots and Jutsu are canon. If expanded franchises were regarded as canon, you'd have so much inconsistency, incontinuity and entirely changed plots, power-scaling and jutsu that things simply don't make sense.

Alot of games in Japan are made into Anime, so why should the reverse be considered "non-canon"? They still use the principles behind the Anime to develope what ever moves would be in the game, and I've seen a double reverse happen in which the Anime starts to reflect things that happen in the games. Just because an anime is "reimagined" doesn't make it irrelevant, I've seen a few animes actually redo the whole idea behind the shows and come out just as interesting (Tenchi and Negima come to mind as well as a few others, and yes I really like Harem anime [to an extent])

Not to question your taste either, but did you really like the filler arcs that existed in the Naruto Anime? I've never met a person who liked them. When I first watched the series before I even read the manga or knew what 'fillers' were, the 85 episodes of filler in the 'first' series (before shippuden) had obvious less quality and relevance, stuff doesn't even get mentioned in reference once the arc is finished. I asked the friend who introduced me to Naruto, why there was such a difference in feel to the episodes in general and that's when I found out about the existence of fillers. There may be a few exceptions to this but generally, filler arcs conclude and once they conclude, the stuff that's happened in the arcs are never mentioned again, either in passing or in reference and most importantly have nothing to do with the plots in the actual original manga series written and drawn by Kishimoto himself.

Of course I did, as a true otaku, any series I take an interest I hang onto with nail biting intensity, I would rewatch them if not for the fact that I sold my Naruto series (buying it after seeing it in Japanese first btw) to make money for buying other anime. There wasn't a single episode I wouldn't watch again. I probably move around alot more than you do (my job requires it, and just an assumption here btw) but I -have- met many people that agree with me, as well as plenty that don't these are the same people who agree with the whole "filler" thing but I'm usually able to change thier opinions on the matter after talking with them for a while.

Since reading manga of these long-running series, I've never particulary liked long-running Anime, or atleast Anime based on Manga. There are a few exceptional ones, Death Note, Monster etc. You get similar problems with trying to make film adaptions out of best-sellers, chances are, that the film won't be as good as the book. Original Anime particulary appeal to me in that regard, especially as they actually get distinguished script writers and producers working in decent studios. The concept of canon though, is in essence, wholly a fandom based concept, and hence, there are differing views on canon, though once again, the generally accepted view is that Anime Filler is certainly not part of Naruto Canon.

I strongly disliked Death Note to be honest, because the ending seemed to flip the whole premises behind the show (except for the death of a certain individual, which I found very funny). But what you state here, is the issue I'm talking about, a person can be very logical, large groups of them become stupid and baseless just because they are able to form an agreement between themselves, which I feel is the problem with things like a "canon" and "filler" logic, so while an individual person says "No I don't agree with that" a group will say "Your an idiot, we all agree on it" and use the mixed idealisms they create to toss back into the face of people who will argue them, especially when americans are concerned in the topic (of which I myself am, just to be sure). The current economical troubles we have as a whole is a prime example of what I'm refering to. Am I saying that people shouldn't get together in this way? No. I am saying that just because one idea seems to be a good one, doesn't make it right.

Also, I don't argue, I discuss, theres a major difference. I'm not saying that under any circumstances that I am right, thats just my view on the subject, and views change much in the same way that I don't have "favorites" because the idea of that seems stupid to me, even if I use the word to describe what I mean (which usually takes a lot longer to explain, and sorry about getting off topic, I just wanted to point that out). Also sorry if I'm coming off as offensive, its not intentional.

*shrugs*

~Kazuya

Kazuya wrote:I strongly disliked Death Note to be honest, because the ending seemed to flip the whole premises behind the show (except for the death of a certain individual, which I found very funny).

*Gasp*

You didn't like Death Note?! I found the ending extremely justifying to my soul!

Isn't that new filler about Utakata, the Rokubi Jinchuuriki?

They haven't said which Jinchuuriki it's about, though I am hoping it's Utakata (dang that's a cool name). Dibs on making a soap-using clan!! Lol.

Look,the thing is filler and canon coexist,and anime wouldn't be the same without filler. True I found myself wanting that extremely long filler between the part one and Shippuden to end,but it's amusing at times. And anime like Bleach,that actually make filler into canon,even if it differs slightly from the manga,work well. I really don't care if the manga and anime are much different,it just makes more episodes to be enjoyed. ^^